Remember the great HM interviews, "What so-and-so sez"? (do they still do those?) Well, I found one with Geezer in my files from a few years ago. Interesting stuff from Sabbath's main lyricist! Enjoy!

WHAT GEEZER SEZ...



Anyone who's done their research would rightfully name the band Black Sabbath as a foundational part of the sound that came to be known as "heavy metal." One of the chief ingredients of that sound was the bass playing of Geezer Butler, who has recently been touring with Ozzy Osbourne and released a solo project called GZR. We were glad to have the chance to talk to him. Here's how the conversation went:

HM: Lets start in the past and then move forward. As I understand, you were rehearsing as the band Earth, and noticed people packing out theaters to get scared. So you changed your name to Black Sabbath and started writing horror lyrics. What was the name of the movie you saw? How did your family react to the black magic imagery and references to Satan?

Geezer: The movie I saw was called "Black Sabbath" and we changed the name of Earth because there was another band called Earth who had a single out at the time adn we were getting their bookings and they were getting ours.



The first song we wrote together was called "Black Sabbath". When we wrote that song, we were trying to think of another name. I said, "Why don't we call the band Black Sabbath?", after the song we'd just written. My parents didn't really mind the imagery. I mean, they did at first, before I was in Black Sabbath, when I was going through my "black magic period", because I was brought up a very strict Catholic. They didn't really like some of the stuff that I was getting into. Part of the lyrics we were writing about in Black Sabbath were like a warning about Satanism and all that sort of stuff, but of course, the media soon misinterpreted all that and turned it around on us.



HM: How did it feel to carry around this image as the cool personification of evil?

Geezer: We didn't really feel that, because the songs we were singing were about the real evils in the world, such as the Vietnam War that was going on at the time, and just all the hypocrisy in religion and the hypocrisy of politicians against the youth and all that. We were singing about the real evils in the world.

HM: I know that in some ways, because of the media's misperceptions, people did put that label on you. Were there any feelings corresponding to that, about having people feel that way about you?

Geezer: No, because most of the intelligent people knew that it was just record company hype. Most of our following were into it for the music and not the hype. There were just all these people that just totally missed the point and tried to have us banned in certain places - sort of the way people did with early rock bands.



HM: Did you ever receive any sort of real negative feedback from the hippies at the time, who were kind of peace-loving and were singing folk music, and here you come out with this music that would peel the paint off the walls?



Geezer: No, not really, because if you listen to lyrics like "War Pigs", which is completely against the war, and "Hand of Doom", that was against drug addiction. I mean, most of the lyrics, if you really listen to them, were about things that we saw that were happening to society at that time, which now people just take for granted. We were seeing the beginning of all that. We were sort of warning people against it - not that it did any good. We sort of saw what it was all leading to, and that's what the lyrics were about. Saying, "If you don't stop now, the world's gonna be in a terrible state". And of course, nobody listens to four musicians.



HM: I remember the first time I saw Sabbath was in 1978. I was a 15 year old, and you were at Anaheim Stadium with Boston, Sammy Hagar and Van Halen. And one of the things I remember is some of the weird people that were there, like people dressed as the Grim Reaper and stuff like that. What are your feelings about some of the people that follow Black Sabbath?

Geezer: A lot of it is harmless fun, like Halloween. Like, everybody gets dressed up for Halloween. If anybody wanted to read, like, [occultism] into the band, I would always prefer them to think of us like they were dressing up for Halloween sort of thing and not always, like, worshipping Satan, as some people tried to read into it. It's all part of the fun.



HM: How did you get your ominous bass sound in Sabbath, especially on the first three albums?



Geezer: By having really cheap equipment. Really, I had the cheapest equipment you could possibly have, because none of us had any money. We actually recorded the first two albums with a four speaker cabinet with only three speakers in it. We couldn't afford the fourth speaker. I had this little cheap amp. Because everything was old and overpowered, I got that real dirty bass sound out of it. It was almost by accident really, because we didn't have a rhythm guitarist or keyboards or anything like that. But the dirtier and fatter the bass low end was, it helped to fill out the overall sound. I just got used to playing that way and it really did make up for the absence of any other instruments in the band.



HM: On Plastic Planet, many of the lyrics bring up some of the problems that we face. Do you feel like you're providing solutions, and how?

Geezer: Not at all. This is something that goes back to the earlier Sabbath stuff. I used to write a lot of the lyrics back in the old Sabbath days and then, like all the other songs, I used to try and end on a hopeful note. But on Plastic Planet they don't because I haven't got any answers this time. I used to think I did, but now I don't. I don't really understand a lot of the things that go on in the world now, especially the violence and the sort of apathy of the politicians toward their own countrymen. It's hard for me to understand why people get like that instead of getting along with each other. It's just like from the victim's point of view rather than the other way around.

HM: I think as a person that's seeking answers, you're closer than the average man when you realize you don't know very much. Instead of thinking you know it all, you're probably one step closer.

Geezer: Yeah, you go through that stage, thinking that you can change. And then you realize, "I can't change a thing in the world", because I really don't know why people resort to violence. And if I don't understand something, then I can't have an answer for it.

HM: What is "X-13" saying about the way we interact with each other on our planet and with God?

Geezer: That's sort of the way television and modern, middle-class society, so-called "Generation X", the way it comes off to me. Like, I see talk shows and stuff like that and it seems to be fashionable to come from a dysfunctional family now. Everybody can't do anything without referring to the computers and the fax machines and everything. When I end the song, it's like we thank the Lord for whatever it is and we "fax Him all our love". People get so used to faxing people. Pretty soon, instead of praying, you're gonna be faxing God or something.

HM: That's a pretty good articulation of your thoughts. And I must commend you on the fine lyrics in songs like "The Invisible", which really preach about the value of each person's life.

Geezer: Thanks. You see a lot of people, and I basically got that one when I was in New York. I hadn't been to a big city to spend a lot of time there. Last January I was in New York, and there were a lot of homeless people sitting out on the streets. And the people that lived in New York sort of didn't see them, they just step over them and walk by them. I wasn't used to seeing that and it was like, to those people, these people are invisible - they don't even see them anymore. And it's like, there are so many things in society that people either take for granted or hide from themselves. We all have these invisible lives that we don't want anybody else to see - or other people don't see anyway - things to hide, and things that we try to show people - but people are just looking for other things and they don't see the obvious.

HM: On the title track, you state how "where there is no God, all is permitted." What do you mean by that?

Geezer: It's like ultimate anarchy and chaos....there are no moral rules. It's just the way I see the world. It seems to me that where there is a lack of God, or the God that I think there should be, then anything is permitted. It's like getting back to this understanding violence and just the hypocrisy and lack of understanding of man to fellow man. It seems with all these different religions all hating each other, it isn't what God intended, if you know what I mean. So, where there is a lack of God, the people just seem to make their own religions and just forget about God. They just make up all these things just to be different from everybody else and have a horrible misunderstanding of each other.



HM: How do you feel about Jesus Christ?

Geezer: That's a personal question that doesn't really have anything to do with music. I've been brought up a Catholic, and I have my own beliefs. I do believe in Jesus, yeah. I think He's a definite hero. I wish there were more people like Him on the earth.

HM: Same here. What do you think about His claims to be "the Way, the Truth and the Life - no one comes to the Father but by me"?

Geezer: I think He tried. I know what He meant. I know why He was crucified, because I feel like I've been through some of that myself, you know, like with the Sabbath lyrics, when people totally misinterpret what you're trying to say and end up putting you down and castigating you. I know I almost feel like Jesus did sometimes, because He must have gone through exactly the same thing - trying to preach some good to the world and certain people don't like it. A lot of people try to preach some goodness and they end up being - not crucified - but like, thrown out of society. It's sad. Look what happened in Israel. They get a man of peace and they assassinate him.

Continued in next post...



© HM Magazine 2001. All rights reserved.

WHAT GEEZER SEZ... (part 2)



HM: How personal is the song "House of Clouds" to you?



Geezer: It was, at the time when I wrote it, personal. But that was the only song I'd written lyrics for about five or six years ago when I was going through a bad time with alcohol. The more I was using - well, abusing - alcohol, I was getting these really bad depressions. I wasn't an alcoholic, I was just abusing it when I did drink. And, instead of getting all happy and everything when I was drinking, I used to get these really bad depressions. That's what those lyrics are about, how I used to look back and see the bad things in life rather than the good things. That's what the "House of Clouds" thing was about.

HM: Did you find the help, and how?

Geezer: I just decided one day that I'd had enough. I couldn't handle it and it was time to stop. I've got responsibilities in life. It was easy for me in one way - I just stopped! I'd had one hangover too many. I just realized that it wasn't good for me. And it's the best thing I ever did, because I got down to my music, I got more into my family and everything, and much more into life. I realized the best way of enjoying life is being yourself - and normal, instead of being drunk out of your brains all the time.



HM: Sometimes when we're young, we have some weird ways of looking at the world.

Geezer: Yeah. It's good to experiment, but it's also good to come out the other side and survive all that. I wasn't as bad as a lot of people I know, but I went as far as I wanted it to go. I was really glad that I came out when I did. I could've gone one more step and never come back from it. But it goes back to the same thing: belief in something, whether it's God or another thing out there that you can reach out to. It will pull you out of anything if you really want to get out of it.

HM: What's your take on modern rock's direction and where do you see hard music going?

Geezer: I like the stuff that's coming out now. I think, particularly metal and heavier rock, it's lost the corporate sponsorship now that it once had, so a lot of bands are more willing to experiment and there's a lot of new independent record labels that are willing to go along with new experimental bands - rather than looking for the same old formulized rubbish. Even though MTV's totally turned its back on metal, I think, in one way, it's been a blessing in disguise because a lot of bands are in it more for the music than to make as much money and to get as high as they possibly can on the charts. They're back to making good music again. I think it's great.



HM: Should there, and will there be a Sabbath reunion?

Geezer: There probably should be, but there won't be. The only way it could ever possibly happen would be for vast amounts of money and that's the wrong way to come together.

HM: How is it working with Dean Castronova?



Geezer: It's great. I think he's a great drummer and he's a great person. He's just a great guy and a brilliant drummer.

HM: Do you ever think about standing before your Maker? What would you say to Him if your life was laid out before Him? What would you say?

Geezer: I think He'd be proud of me. I really do, because I thought when I got this band together there was definitely a good presence guiding me. The whole thing, we got together in two weeks. It just happened. The beginning of June, I didn't have a singer, didn't have any lyrics written. Then, by the end of June, we were in the studio making an album. It was like something magical happened. I [blank - maybe "pray a"] lot, and I've got nothing to hide from God. I look forward to meeting Him.

HM: How do you feel about other religions that say basically, "It doesn't matter how you get there, as long as you do"?

Geezer: I think that as long as they don't use violence and as long as they understand. That's what Jesus wanted in life and that's what He was preaching. And I think that's still the right way to go, to always understand your fellow man.

HM: Yeah, I definitely agree with you that He preached tolerance...

Geezer: Absolutely. I can't understand these people that kill for the sake of God. God doesn't want that. There's no way He wants that.



HM: How do you grapple with the quote where Jesus said. "I am the only Way" - basically an intolerant statement as far as that goes?

Geezer: What, that you have to believe in Jesus to go to Heaven?

HM: Yeah.

Geezer: He was probably misinterpreted. I know what He meant. I think He was saying that you didn't have to believe in Him, but you have to believe in God, being as Jesus was God. I don't think you have to be, you know...I think that, if you follow a man made religion...well, all religions seem to be man made, and I think eventually...like, I was a strict Catholic and I was a religious fanatic. I wanted to be a priest when I was a kid. I used to go to church every day and confession every week. Then I sort of found my own belief, if you know what I mean. And I believed in my way much more than I did the Catholic Church, when I found that there was way too much hypocrisy in the established church. There were just so many people that didn't stick to it, and yet you'd see them at church every Sunday and three minutes later they'd be down at the pub. I didn't believe that way, so I found my own way. I think as long as you're not harming anybody, I don't care what people believe in.

HM: I get a lot of inspiration when I look at how Jesus treated people who were very religious and fanatical. He didn't give them the time of day, in fact He often times attacked their strict viewpoints.



Geezer: Well, I think because a lot of people go along with it blindly, they don't think about it. They're born into it. They think because you're born into it, you don't even have to think about it. It's sort of [like] being a Catholic, and not even thinking about it, just going through the motions and going through the prayers without even thinking about what they meant. It's only when they really think about it, and if you're lucky enough to get your own conclusions and your own beliefs, you do find your own way then if you want to.

HM: The conclusions I came to in my own mind was that, because He came into a Jewish context and He specifically stated that He was God - that's the reason why He was a threat and why He was killed. So that reinforces my conclusion that He is God because nobody would die for a lie. If they would die for a false thing then they're a lunatic. But of course, He proved with His miracles and everything, that He was telling the truth. But that one point where it opposes the other religions - I can't, in my mind, make the two fit because Jesus was so adamant about saying, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life". He didn't say to kill other religions of course, but He made it clear that He was the Truth.

Geezer: Well, it depends on what you believe in, though. Some people believe in Mohammed. The way you believe in Jesus is the same way they'll believe in Mohammed.



But, as long as they stick to that belief and not try and ram that down other people's throats, then fine. In God's eyes it's all the same to them. It's just tolerance. I really believe in tolerance.

HM: I believe in tolerance to a certain point. But to me, it would be like intellectual suicide to think that all world religions can coexist with each other when you take their conclusions, they just don't fit.



Well, it's been great sharing ideas with you and getting some questions answered. I wish you the best. I'll be sure and get you a copy of this issue when it comes out. HM is predominantly a magazine that covers the Christian hard music scene. With every issue we always interview somebody that doesn't necessarily fit into that label. We interviewed King Diamond, Metallica and Extreme, so we're glad to have you in there.

Geezer: It's about time somebody did that, instead of just writing everybody off as just Satanists. It's about time that somebody put down about what we were trying to go over in my lyrics.



HM: A lot of us could see that from the beginning. Of course, I was old enough to get into Sabbath when I was a youngster, when your first albums came out, but I was more inclined to Deep Purple and Led Zeppelin at the time. But I got into Sabbath in the mid-70's, and when I heard the song "After Forever", I could see that this wasn't just a bunch of Satanists.



Geezer: Absolutely. A lot of people missed that point. They didn't sit down and look at that. They'll pick the line and even, like, change the line. There's one famous one about (the song) "Paranoid". They say, "I told you to end your life". And the real one is, "I tell you to enjoy life". Somebody picked it out and even went on television with it, saying that "I told you to end your life". I couldn't believe it! They completely turned it around on us. It was ridiculous!



That's good that there's a magazine like yours that can put things straight. It's about time.






© HM Magazine 2001. All rights reserved.

You know, it's just ridiculous how misunderstood Sabbath is. Even a quick glance at the lyrics and you'll see that there's a positive message there.

But I do think the band was trying to cultivate the "evil" image on and off in their career.

Great interview!

Awesome!

I remember reading that interview when my issue of HM arrived in the mail...loved it! Brought it to work for a couple days straight and read Geezer's interview several times...seems like a good, decent guy.